CCCWC September competition voters’ comments

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A clue to SOUNDER.
111 comments were received for this competition (from 13 competitors, 2 others)
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Comments on the competition
1.
I liked clue 57 and gave it 5 points
2.
The majority of clues used definitions relating to pigs, either a herd or a young boar. Neither Collins nor Oxford include these definitions, nor does the current online edition of Chambers. On that basis I have favoured clues with other definitions, recognised by these dictionaries.
3.
One 3 and lots of 2's and 1's from me. Many clues needed to be more meaningful if not sounder. A Gadarene rush to mediocrity, I fear, by many!
4.
Some very nice clues but no clear winner for me so five received three points each: 20, 29, 37, 43 and 44.
5.
As usual a wide variety of definitions and devices to choose from, with some clues SOUNDER than others, and less than a dozen standing out from the crowd. The more robust, reliable, fitter and generally better definitions predominated (19)(5, 8, 9, 11, 13, 15, 21, 25, 30, 32, 34, 36, 37, 38, 39, 50, 53, 55 and 57), followed closely by the 'plumbers' (14)(12, 17, 19, 22, 29, 33, 37, 38, 42, 43, 44, 45, 51 and 54) and the swine, either individually (10)(6, 10, 16, 23, 24, 28, 41, 45, 49* and 52) or in a group (7)(1, 3, 4, 18, 31, 46 and 48). Three clues were less specific about the species of animal involved (2, 26 and 27) whereas a couple of others went canine with reference to a very particular film of the same name (1 and 33). Finally, if the siren didn't rouse you (35, 40 and 52) you might be deeper asleep (14 and 20). Amongst all these, just 6 clues offered double definitions (1, 33, 37, 38, 45 and 52) but three others defied categorisation for one reason or another (7, 47 and 56). With such a 'friendly' group of letters this month, anagrams were in abundance, popular themes being the US DRONE (9, 20, 47, 50 and 55), the RUDE SON (10, 16 and 49) and DOES RUN (2, 6 and 27). Other combinations included DUNES OR (22 and 42), NURSED + O (3), RED SUN + O (8), ROUSED + N (17), UNDOES + R (21), DRONES + U (28), NO USE DR (32), OUR END + S (35), SEND OUR (51) and N + OR USED (57). Other wordplay devices included O in SUNDER (11, 29 and 43), SOUR + (18 and 46) and SO + UNDER (23 and 54). With the recent Labour party leadership election it was perhaps surprising that there were so few references to RED reversals (25* and 40) with the first of these being the only & lit. on offer this month. Just one competititor chose to hide the answer in the clue (4) and there were a couple of semi & lits. also (23 and 43).

Comments on the clues

1. A dog that liked hunting pigs.

1.	Surface seems rather brief and definitions seems quite obscure.

2. A group of animals that does run around wildly

1.	Definition a bit vague perhaps, and might be better without 'that' and 'around' which both seem redundant in the wordplay (see clue 6).
2.	<defn> that <wordplay> doesn't work for me

3. A group of oinkers nursed sow's middle higgledy-piggledy.

1.	Might be better with the higgledy-piggledy sow's middle nursing the group of oinkers ?
2.	surely the sow should nurse the oinkers not vice versa
3.	Humorous and clever!

4. A lot of pigs also understand to some extent

1.	Surface reading seems to lack coherent meaning.
2.	Good surface reading.

5. A tremendous olio – could be much better without meat.

1.	Nice idea, but surely needs word order changing – i.e. "A tremendous olio: without meat, it could be much better" .
2.	'olio' isn't really an anagram indicator and a second indicator is required for 'meat'.
3.	No anagram indicator for meat

7. Aha! Two foreign articles for a code?

1.	Surface reading lacks sensible meaning and definition seems faulty.
2.	Very good surface reading.

8. Alien red sun engulfs the last of Pluto – it's more solid now

1.	A good clue, strikingly different from all the others, but marred slightly by the "now" at the end which has no cryptic function.
2.	'alien' doesn't really convey a mixture and 'now' seems redundant to the definition.
3.	…"it's now more solid" would have been better.

9. American drone could be more reliable

1.	Indirect anagram. Needs to be "US" as in clue 20 not "American"
2.	Perhaps it would be fairer to avoid the partially indirect anagram and to include an indication of how the wordplay could be the answer.

10. Appallingly rude son's a pig

1.	Perhaps 'an immature pig' would enhance the definition and surface ? (see clue 16)

11. Better part carried over

1.	Sunder is archaic and this should really be indicated to the solver – as in 29.
2.	Surface rather too brief to convey much meaning, perhaps 'carrying' would improve the wordplay ?

12. Builder fellow becomes society plumber

1.	Wordplay and surface reading both seem a little awkward.

13. Comparatively fit guard regularly does pole dancing.

1.	An intriguing surface but the wordplay seems over-complicated.

14. Deeper, very below! (7)

1.	I'm not sure what the surface reading might be describing here. Can something be "very below"?
2.	Surface reading seems ungrammatical and is too short to convey much interest or meaning.

15. Dogs' Home address Spooner's given should be assumed to be more reliable

1.	Wordplay too obscure to be fair to the solver and surface reading lacks coherent meaning.

17. Drunk roused with trapped gas, from bed one might fathom (7)

1.	I assume gas=N refers to nitrogen, but this is too vague. Also, I think a sounder measures sea depth from the surface, not the bed.
2.	'gas' is far too vague to fairly specify N and the surface and definition both seems a tad awkward

18. End up separating inharmonious herd of pigs

1.	Surface reading lacks a proper subject and 'up' seems too indirect to be a recognisable anagram indicator.

19. Examine casualty with American probing apparatus

1.	ER may be casualty "in America(n)" or "for American(s)" but not, in my opinion, "with American".
2.	'Casualty' requires capitalisation in the wordplay.

20. Faster US drone being developed?

1.	Of the US drone clues, for me this comes a very close second to 50.
2.	Nice clue but I don't think that it needs the question mark.
3.	Why the question ?

21. Fitter undoes screws close to dishwasher

1.	The alternative readings of "fitter" and "close" in the surface and cryptic are nicely deceptive.
2.	At back of dishwasher would be more believable
3.	Perhaps ' on bottom of dishwasher' would improve the surface reading ?

22. For measuring depth of dunes or drifts

1.	I'd prefer this clue if it had "Equipment", "Device", "Apparatus", etc at the start. That would make the definition more accurate.
2.	"For measuring depth" is an adjectival phrase to define a noun
3.	Definition seems to give SOUNDING ?

23. Gadarene one rushed downhill, thus getting into a submerged state

1.	Nice idea but needs work to give better surface reading and more concise cryptic reading
2.	Nice semi & lit., perhaps a little too obscure.

25. Healthier shade of Socialism’s returning after common sense has introduced extreme changes of direction

1.	Interesting idea, clever clue, but perhaps overly complex

26. Herd hearing hesitation. (7)

1.	Definition seems a little vague and wordplay faulty.
2.	Succinct and clever.

27. Herd of does run around (7)

1.	Superfluous "of"
2.	Definition seems rather vague, (see clue 6).

28. Ignoring borders, our drone's destroyed a young swine

1.	Interesting idea, clever clue, good wordplay and surface reading
2.	Wordplay seems a bit awkward.

29. In case of worn-out part, ring plumber?

1.	Pleased to see an indicator for the obsolete word, but not 100% convinced by "worn-out".
2.	Concise, good surface, clever word play

30. Increasingly appropriate property of music entertainer on vacation

1.	Wordplay and definition are sound but the surface lacks coherent meaning.

31. Inhabitant of Essex town loses the group of wild pigs.

1.	Surface reading too implausible
2.	Very good surface reading.
3.	Excellent surface reading.
4.	Perhaps the surface reading would be more convincing without 'wild' ?

32. It's no use, Doctor, changing to be healthier

1.	Surface meaning seems illogical and the indirect anagram is generally best avoided.

33. Lead in 1972 movie (7)

1.	Both definitions seem rather too obscure in my book.
2.	This clue seems too short for its surface to convey any substantial meaning.

34. Leaving tripe out, mixed purer diet's no healthier.

1.	Strictly, tripe needs its own anagram indicator as TRIPE doesn't appear in sequence in the anagram fodder.
2.	Why composite anagram with contrived surface reading when direct anagrams with excellent surface readings are available?
3.	Surface seems confusing, 'tripe' also requires an anagram indicator in the wordplay.

35. Maybe siren song's beginning our end at sea

1.	Nice imagery though the surface is a little awkward

36. More consistent, maybe, but team's netting nothing, and is losing ground.

1.	Nicely worked but team=Sunderland is too vague for me.
2.	Surface reading a bit disjointed and 'team' is rather vague to indicate Sunderland

37. More reliable chap doing the plumbing?

1.	Simple but elegant.
2.	Simple and effective
3.	The surface might be better as a statement rather than a question (Chap doing the plumbing is more reliable)(see 38).

38. More reliable one to go into depth

1.	This is a good solid clue but 37 does the same with a slightly more convincing surface.
2.	Definition and surface seem slightly clumsy.

39. More wholesome, thus a French dessert (eclairs) rates tops.

1.	'dessert (eclairs) rates tops' isn't the same as 'tops of dessert (eclairs) rates'.

40. Noise maker in National Union of Students heads up socialist revolution

1.	'National Union of Students heads' isn't the same as 'heads of National Union of Students'.

41. One in Paris goes after staff officer – the German pig!

1.	Surface reading seems disjointed.

42. One measures depth of water or dunes disperse

1.	I don't understand the surface reading.
2.	This surface doesn't make much sense in my opinion.
3.	Definition and wordplay seem divorced in the surface reading.

43. One measures, to a great extent, beneath the surface (7)

1.	Another nice semi & lit., perhaps 'to some extent' would be more accurate ?

44. One probing the depths is submerged inhaling oxygen

1.	I don't think is=s is at all fair. By extension had=d, would=d, not=nt, will=ll, etc. I don't think any of these are acceptable.

45. One who’s sometimes deep, yet, is a pig

1.	'yet' seems unnecessary to both definitions, surface seems odd

46. Pigs? No! Dave heartlessly entered tart.

1.	What is the surface even trying to say?
2.	Surface reading seems nonsensical, 'No' isn't standard wordplay for N.

47. Result of awful drone joining us, bore maybe heard?

1.	Indirect definition. Clue needs to be SOUNDER to get points.
2.	Two wordplays and no direct definition isn't really fair to the solver.

48. Rotter swaps bit of bacon for special herd of pigs (7)

1.	Clever wordplay, surface reading seems rather disjointed.

49. Rude son is out of order, the little swine!

1.	The most interesting surface reading of the "rude son" anagrams.

50. Safer as a result of US drone deployment?

1.	My favourite of the US drone clues, telling the most interesting story.
2.	The most appropriate surface reading of the "US drone" clues.
3.	Why the question mark ?

51. Send our engineer. He'll do the plumbing

1.	I can't accept 'engineer' as an intransitive verb.
2.	I like the anagram.
3.	Doesn't work as 'engineer' is transitive and needs to precede the fodder to indicate the anagram adequately
4.	'engineer' is transitive and must precede the anagram fodder.

52. Speaker, perhaps, which might give out crackling?

1.	Perhaps 'produce' would be a better definition than 'give out' ?

53. Tear around – nothing's healthier

1.	Sunder is archaic and this should really be indicated to the solver – as in 29.
2.	The punctuation here interferes with the wordplay, affecting the fairness of this clue.

54. Thus, down below, it comes in view – A means to plumb the ocean blue.

1.	5 points from me. Unique, poetic and accurate.
2.	Nice poetry, but too verbose and quite a few redundant words. What is the role of 'it comes in view'?
3.	Nice couplet but 'it comes in view' seems unnecessary for wordplay and definition.

55. Trigger happy US drone?

1.	Sorry but the missing hyphen makes a difference. Trigger-happy is just different than trigger happy.
2.	Surface a bit too short, definition rather obscure dialect,'happy' isn't really an anagram indicator and why the question mark ?

56. Well, Queen Elizabeth lasts longer! (7)

1.	This clue seems to define a verb rather than an adjective or noun.
2.	Unfortunately this entertaining clue fails grammatically – sounder would be "lasting longer" not "lasts longer".

57. What's better – new or used mobile?

1.	Absolutely brilliant, this clue stands out! 5 points!
2.	Nice anagram.
3.	Simple & concise, good surface
4.	The question mark should really follow 'better' as it's not required in the wordplay.