CCCWC October competition voters’ comments

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A clue to DOLMADES.
144 comments were received for this competition (from 16 competitors, 0 others)
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Comments on the competition
1.
As might be expected, lots of puns on leaves and stuffed, few very convincing. Some rather unoriginal anagrams: old dames, odd meals, made sold. No stand out winners.
2.
16, 47, 48 and 54 all made reference to cabbage. To my mind, dolmades are stuffed vine (grape) leaves. Stuffed cabbage leaves are lahanodolmades.
3.
Interesting one, and as expected a good proportion of clues coming in as anagrams using 'meals', 'odd', 'made' etc. Where 'made' has been directly used in the clue, it seems a bit of an easy way out A question to consider: should the definition be indicated in the plural (dolma vs dolmades)? Clues 32 and 37 stood out from the rest in my opinion, doing the job neatly without too much fuss
4.
I prioritised clues which had more specific defs than the nebulous 'Turkish dish' and similar which didn't do justice to the unusual nature of DOLMADES. Such clues didn't get my marks unless there was something special about them (58). (26) managed to describe DOLMADES's edible leaves and fillings whilst the wordplay introduced a wholly spurious meaning to the surface, so top marks to her/him. I thought (64) was the best & lit. effort: I do like good '& lits' such as this but they may need something special to beat good 'spurious surface' clues which are inherently more amusing – and often harder to compose, I find.
5.
DOLMADES cried out for anagram treatment (as the number of anagrams entered testifies) but clue 2 was a nicely misleading approach.

Comments on the clues

1. A couple of Spaniards entertained the French, consuming bananas for a main course (8)

1.	Not sure about main course.

2. After heading to dentist, some lad sadly leaves with fillings

1.	Reasonable clue with slightly unnatural surface.
2.	A great clue that makes you think "wish I'd come up with that." Nice misleading definition. Obvious anagram, but not so easy to implement.
3.	"some lad sadly leaves" is not very smooth in the surface reading
4.	Very cleverly worded clue imho

4. Boy leaves molded salad medley for stuffed molded leaves.

1.	Surface with repeated words doesn't really work

5. Charities accept unlimited plate from Middle Eastern sources

1.	I can't see how unlimited=mad, if that's what's intended
2.	Can't accept doles=charities

6. Cheese put back into sold-off food parcels.

1.	Nice idea, but I don't like "sold-off" for "sold off". Maybe better would have been "Food parcels sold out when cheese put back in"

7. Cook minced lamb quickly; add rice when it's finished; wrapping with stewed leaves finishes Greek dish

1.	Neither "rice when it's finished" for E nor "stewed leaves finishes" for D and S are convincing, and they make the clue very long.
2.	Almost impossible for the solver I think.
3.	I'm not certain that a straightforward recipe constitutes a cryptic clue.
4.	Bit verbose?
5.	Two finishes, plus unfortunately wordplay requirements have affected the surface

8. Cooked odd meals for Greeks to snack on (8)

1.	Bog standard anagram – there are better clues this month, I'm afraid.
2.	Definition is adjectival describing a noun

9. Cooked odd meals; stuffed vine leaves, perhaps

1.	Anagram a bit too obvious.

10. Crazy about small portions? On the contrary, leaves stuffed

1.	One of the few leaves/stuffed ideas that works for me.
2.	Quite good. 'Cross' or similar for 'mad' might have been better.
3.	Lovely idea.

11. Delicacies, half-cut medallions, served in parties

1.	For the surface to work, it would need to be 'served at parties' or 'served to parties' (eg of tourists). 'Served in parties' doesn't work

12. Delicious item from the grapevine?(8)

1.	Definition much too vague.
2.	The definition doesn't make much sense to me (or it's not very misleading)
3.	Doubt anyone could cold solve this one! And not sure if factually correct either

13. Dish which makes Spanish girl crazy for men

1.	Simple and original.
2.	Different. Amusing surface reading.

14. Dishes stuffed (forced into old broken saucepan lid)

1.	Surface reading makes little sense.
2.	You can force something into a saucepan, but how do you force it into a saucepan lid?
3.	Strange surface reading

15. Dishes which get prepared in Middle Eastern site?

1.	Middle Eastern is much too contrived.

16. Farce in the Savoy?

1.	Needs some wordplay.
2.	Lovely idea, but I defy anyone to solve the clue without crossing letters
3.	Nice find for a cryptic definition
4.	Concise and better than my play on the Savoy

17. Fare prepared wrapped in a covering of leaves (8)

1.	Slightly clumsy surface.
2.	Nice & lit., but doesn't really need the 'a'
3.	The indefinite 'a' spoils the clue (wordplay), a pity since the surface (lit. def.) is good.
4.	Best of the &lits with a natural surface reading

18. Finger food makes odd meals

1.	Unoriginal anagram.
2.	odd doing double duty? or 'makes' anag indicator?
3.	OK clue but hardly likely to rise above the crowd – many entrants would have considered this anagram (e.g. I did )

19. Folded vine leaves as loved in Med (extra ingredients minced)?

1.	Extra ingredients minced is rather cumbersome.
2.	not convinced this is &lit. role of 'folded'? should this also not 'leave'?
3.	One of the better &lits
4.	Clever idea.

21. Greek delicacies – made,sold,ordered.

1.	Made, ordered, sold or ordered, made, sold would be more natural.
2.	'Ordered, made, sold' would be more logical
3.	Lovely concise idea, but unfortunately the surface reading does not quite make sense – surely the order comes before the sale?
4.	Would have given marks if it had been Greek delicacies – ordered, made, sold.
5.	OK clue but hardly likely to rise above the crowd – many entrants would have considered this anagram (e.g. I did )

22. Greek offering contribution to idol made sacrifice

1.	Nice hidden, although dolmades are not necessarily Greek.
2.	One of the better hidden clues, but I feel the definition is slightly weak

23. Idol made sandwich filling for wraps.

1.	Nice hidden, but there's no logical reason for "idol" in the surface.
2.	I don't see how 'filling' works (grammatically) here as an indicator.

24. Is Köse Dam lodging some revolutionary potential energy source for the Turks?

1.	Original idea, although first word has no role in the cryptic.

25. Jobseeker is angry inside and leaves completely stuffed.

1.	False &lit claim, so no points on principle, whatever its other merits may be.
2.	Jobseeker and dole are not the same
3.	It's a nice idea, but I don't think dole = jobseeker works (and Chambers agrees), and it's not an &lit since jobseeker is not in the def
4.	Good attempt but for sure the clue as a whole isn't a definition of DOLMADES (as it would be in an '& lit.' clue).

26. Lad with some onset of dental decay leaves with filling

1.	Nounal angram indicator (decay) is a weakness.
2.	Preferred 2 to this but nice idea
3.	Excellent clue with a nice misleading definition
4.	one of the few convincing misdirected readings, though the "some" stands out in the surface.

27. Leaves packing meat and rice, cooked and freely sold outside (8)

1.	works fine but surface not the best.
2.	Nothing wrong with this clue but lacks

28. Leaves well stuffed, after cook served up meals including dumpling starter?

1.	Why WELL stuffed for the definition?

29. Made and sold with leaf and meat (8)

1.	nothing in clue to indicate that it's an anagram
2.	Where is the anagram indicator?
3.	There is no anagram indicator here.

30. Made, sold, chewed .. and leaves when stuffed

1.	Leaves needs a subject, and is wrong tense.

31. Mediterranean dish unusually sold, stuffed with semi-hard cheese from the East.

1.	"Semi-hard" doesn't add anything.
2.	'unusually sold' reads a bit strange in the surface. The 'semi-hard' I think is unnecessary.
3.	It made my short list, but missed the cut due to the clunkiness of "unusually sold"

33. Middle East leaves, seldom made full of beans?

1.	No convincing anagram indicator (full of beans won't do)
2.	not really &lit is it?
3.	I'm not sure 'full of beans' realy works as an anagram indicator

34. Middle Eastern dish leaves one stuffed

1.	I only see one definition, not two
2.	DDs need distinct meanings

37. Mother and daughter fill dish; son finishes it and leaves, stuffed

1.	One of the few convincing leaves/stuffed clues, just pipped by 10.
2.	Nicely constructed

39. Mysterious characters covering large cracked dish found in Western Asia

1.	Original approach, but last four words not entirely convincing.
2.	Nice idea but I think getting DOES from 'mysterious characters' is asking a bit too much of the solver

44. Portions stuffed with nuts? Not usually (8)

1.	As a definition it's far too vague
2.	Wordplay ok but definition seems too vague – a food product not usually stuffed with nuts could be anything!
3.	Not too bad, but the definition is a bit woolly for an &lit.

45. Sad model's thrown up, having stuffed food.

1.	Nice surface but let down by a slightly weak definition I feel

46. Sad mole wanders around taxidermy centre and leaves stuffed

1.	I'm not convinced by the sad mole or its departure.
2.	Amusing idea to disguise the definition! I think it should really be 'centre of taxidermy' though
3.	It made me laugh!

47. Same old god-awful cabbage meals

1.	They never served dolmades at my school – might have been a nice change.
2.	I don't like "god-awful" for a combined indicator of D and anagrind. Nice idea, though.

48. Savoury dish Eric prepared in the Savoy perhaps, goes off?

1.	Rather misses the point of a cryptic clue – the wordplay needs to lead to dolmades, not to its ingredients.
2.	Very unconventional clue
3.	This is a very bizarre clue – using cryptic hints to build upon the definition rather than construct the word; I don't think it works
4.	Too indirect

49. Seldom notice stuffed food.

1.	Dual use of stuffed is poor cluing, and overall surface is weak.
2.	This really needs a separate anagram indicator. If AD is to be clued indirectly I'd prefer: AD in anagram of seldom
3.	Double-duty of "stuffed" looks unsound

51. Stuff males do fumblingly on first date (8)

1.	Definition?
2.	Inadequate definition, and "first date" is not equal to D.
3.	'Stuff' is not an adequate definition
4.	Was 'stuff' really intended as the definition? Date = d so no need for first (which really should be 'first of' or similar)
5.	Nice surface reading but no clear definition
6.	Needs to be "first of date" for cryptic reading
7.	no convincing definition

52. Stuffed grape leaves loaded with Ramsay's heart dressing.

1.	Not convinced by "dressing" as an anagram indicator.
2.	'heart dressing' sounds a bit too bizarre to me!

53. Stuffed vegetable dishes that can explode are odd meals. (8)

1.	"Are" would need to be omitted to make this anagram indicator work.
2.	Surface not convincing
3.	I think the wording needs tweaking, the structure would be better as: definition = (anagram indicator) odd meals

55. Taverna's fare sold freshly made within

1.	Dolmades are Turkish acc.to Chambers
2.	Shortlisted but not quite there due to slightly forced surface reading

56. This idol made silver screen entrée in Batman?

1.	perfect!
2.	Very clever, although normal usage would be entrée TO or INTO a group or sphere – not quite what's implied here.
3.	A little obscure but highly original
4.	Looks like 'screen' is used as the concealment indicator, but grammatically ok?
5.	I like the misleading definition but think 'screens' is needed for the hidden indicator. Perhaps others will disagree
6.	nice touch, 'silver screen'

57. Turkey dinner? Get dishes out, get crackers in!

1.	Too many gets?

58. Turkey snacks – Boxing Day's same old rubbish!

1.	Original idea.
2.	I like this, but not sure about "Turkey snacks" rather than "Turkish snacks"
3.	Nice surface; really should be Turkish snacks I think but still deserving of points

59. Turkey's savoury stuffing leaves sad old me blown up

1.	Amusing, but slightly stilted surface reading

60. Turkish delight's sold all over the place stuffed with nuts and a mystery additive

1.	Nice ideas but the definition seems a bit of a stretch to me and I can't bring myself to accept mystery additive for E

61. Turkish dish starts to drool over damsel in distress(9)

1.	Unconvincing surface.
2.	A nice idea here, but am not sure what the surface is trying to convey. This could have been tweaked for a definite winner
3.	Fun image and a different (sound) treatment puts it in the points
4.	What does the surface mean?

63. Turkish food with prepared filling sold out

1.	Nice try, although "food with prepared filling" seems artificial.
2.	Simple but effective and sound
3.	'Prepared filling' reads jarringly.

64. What's cook prepared in casings of leaves?

1.	Nice try, although casing would surely imply both first and last letters without pluralisation.
2.	Definition a bit woolly for an &lit.
3.	Best of the 'do' + made in LS clues.
4.	Excellent clue; the best this month I think. I tried desperately to get something similar to work without success.

65. With no finales, modest Lady Gaga leaves wrapped in meat, quite the reverse

1.	What's the significance of "quite the reverse" in the surface reading?
2.	An excellent idea. I'd have marked it higher had "quite the reverse" (required for the definition) worked better for the surface reading
3.	Would have worked better if 'quite the reverse' had been put as a separate phrase and a question mark after 'meat'
4.	Lovely clue. Interesting definition structure.