CCCWC June competition voters’ comments

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A clue to FLESH POT.
167 comments were received for this competition (from 17 competitors, 0 others)
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Comments on the competition
1.
It's hard to see many good clues here. A certain amount of innuendo was perhaps inevitable. Nothing wrong with that, but wit and style would also be appreciated.
2.
Top Shelf was such an obvious anagram, that a clue was going to have to be truly excellent to stand out, none did so I dismissed all of them, though 50 got close. Other anagrams seemed exceptionally tortuous. Anagrams, for me, should have an elegance in their construction; clueing a string of letters and half words and throwing in an anagrind seems to lack this quality, unless excellent wordplay and originality underpins it. I feel likewise about compound anagrams. 15 2 points, 18, 40 and 44 got one point each. 22 gained a merit for attempting MARMITE as a definition, though the wording didn't work for me. Of the rest I awarded 25 1 point, 52 2 points, 38 3 points, 19 4 points.
3.
I may be a pedant and in a minority of one, but I have two problems with 'a place of pleasure' and variants of this as a definition for FLESH POT. Firstly, the use of FLESHPOT in the singular (rather than FLESHPOTS) seems dubious, but more importantly, I can nowhere find this meaning expressed as two words. I conclude that we were asked to clue a pot for putting flesh in.
4.
Clunky amateurish stuff for the most part
5.
The TOP SHELF anagram was all to obvious to me and occurred to me more or less straight away (what that says about me, I daren't think). It was so wide-ranging I felt unable to give those clues any points.
6.
Once again plenty of options for this month's definition (5) and wordplay. That said, the majority (31) opted for the meaning of place providing sexual entertainment, with a further 8 clues providing a specific location (5, 7, 10, 20, 33, 37, 49, and 51).Of these, 44in particular stood out from the rest (literally !). 5 clues opted for the historical meaning of a cooking pot (4, 5, 20, 22 and 48), 3 chose high living (11, 12 and 14) and another 3 used the obsolete sense of an abundance of flesh (27, 28 and 41). Ten clues contained definitions that seemed to vague to categorise (2, 13, 21, 23, 45, 46, 47, 50 and 53), and five clues incorporated double definitions (5, 20, 27, 28 and 45). Points awarded to the best 8 clues this month: 44, 5, 29, 52, 28, 31, 33 and 38. Once again anagrams proved popular (33 clues), and many still employed faulty anagram indicators (12, 29, 40, 50 and 51), with just one clue missing an anagram indicator altogether (1). Given the subject matter, TOP SHELF was a very popular choice for a straight anagram, but it is a near reversal of the clueword rather than a proper jumble (as acknowledged by clues 17 and 35), and not many of these clues stood out, with clue 29 being the best of the bunch (8, 22, 23, 29, 30, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 and 51). Other popular choices were POLE + F/H/S/T (18, 36, 39, 43 and 54), FELT POSH (12, 31 and 32) and HELPS + F/O/T (1, 4* and 13). There were just four clues using some combination of initial letters (3, 16,39 and43) and another three which incorporated a reversal of SELF (19, 27 and 33). There were a larger number of attempted & lit clues this month (9), with varying degrees of success (10, 16*, 18, 21, 30, 36, 50,53 and 54). Four of these (clues 10, 30, 50 and 54) serve to illustrate the subject of 'semi & lit' clues. The wordplay here should provide an enhancement of the definition, but in clue 10 the wordplay is really an & lit clue in itself, with the independent 'definition' non-specific and not really necessary to the clue. Likewise in clues 50 and 54 , the non-enhanced definitions are too vague to stand alone. By contrast, in clue 30 the wordplay gives a possible example of the much clearer definition phrase.

Comments on the clues

1. A house of ill repute where he oft helps…

1.	Where is the anagram indicator?
2.	where is the anagram indicator?
3.	no anagram indicator, what is 'where he' doing?
4.	unclear indication of anagram
5.	Not a valid clue – no anagram indicator and "he" is extraneous
6.	Don't see an angram indicator.
7.	The surface reading could probably be improved by replacing the otiose 'where he' with a proper anagram indicator.
8.	'where he' needs to be replaced with an anagram indicator. Why the ellipsis?
9.	Needs an anagram indicator.
10.	Anagram ind.?

2. After change of heart, expose oneself, lifting shirt here? (5,3)

1.	I quite like this. A nice surface.
2.	As an overall definition this is far too vague, over-relying on rather tortuous WP ('shirt' = top ?) (see clues 23, 39 and 43).
3.	Surface makes little sense.
4.	Change of heart to what? No indicator for 'e' as replacement.

3. Bodily appetites primarily push one to strip joint

1.	"Bodily appetites" for "flesh" in the wordplay is perhaps a bit too close to the meaning of "flesh" in the definition (so not quite cryptic)
2.	Wordplay for 'flesh' is rather vague.
3.	Is flesh = bodily appetites fair?

4. Butcher helps to initially fill the good old vessel to cook meat

1.	Perhaps would work better without 'the good' ?
2.	Simple but nice.

5. Cook beef stew with this old tenderloin, perhaps (5,3)

1.	I think Tenderloin is specifically an area of SF, not a generic flesh pot
2.	Nice clue (and not an anagram in sight!)
3.	Nice idea, but Tenderloin realy needs an upper case T – could have started with this to avoid this weakness
4.	Good one.

6. Dirty Den returns to start playing with himself — fuming, central characters quit

1.	Too much information, thank you!
2.	Lovely idea for the definition, but the rest of it feels convoluted.
3.	I like 'Dirty Den' but ideally needs to be 'start of playing' and 'fuming's central characters'
4.	The wordplay is far too tortuous and the surface reading rather disjointed.
5.	Not keen on "start playing" for P. Obscure reference to 2004 scandal
6.	Dirty Den as def is cute
7.	Great surface. Wordplay is slightly complicated especially 'im' removal.

7. Endless theft plots corrupt Vice City

1.	Nice idea, I'm familiar with the game but suspect many won't be.
2.	Perhaps 'corrupted' would be a better anagram indicator ?
3.	Nice surface but arcance video game reference.
4.	Nice. Surface could have been made more appealing.

8. Entertainers in this establishment similar to those on the top shelf, maybe?

1.	This sort of allusive approach doesn't work for me
2.	Unfortunately the wordplay is rather lost in this extended definition.

9. Exotic help with soft porn venue.

1.	Can help be exotic? Nice anagram, but I'm sure a better indicator might have been found, so as to aid the surface.
2.	The surface reading seems a bit too short to be meaningful.

10. Exotic hostel primarily for pleasure in Babylon, perhaps

1.	With the last 3 words omitted this would be a fair &lit. – a semi &lit needs an independent def. and wordplay which expands this .

11. Fellow hopes to get stoned in cleared-out loft? That's high living!

1.	I like the pun, but I fear the def. leads to 'flesh pots' plural
2.	Nice pun on "high living"
3.	Perhaps 'empty loft' would be neater ?
4.	My favourite this month, amusing pun!

12. Felt uneasy about Posh Spice's luxurious lifestyle (5,3)

1.	Spice's doesn't indicate an anagram to me
2.	"Spice" as anagram indicator?
3.	Perhaps 'spicy Posh's' would be a better way to combine anagram indicator and fodder ?

13. Female helps to show off plenty of it here

1.	'Plenty of it here' is a weak def.
2.	Definition rather vague and 'show' isn't really required for the anagram indicator.

14. Flab on the tum from high living

1.	I can't help thinking this needs a question mark.
2.	Quite like this. Nitpicking I would suggest it should be wordplay FOR definition, or definition FROM wordplay
3.	Wordplay should be 'for' not 'from' definition (see eg clue 17), surface reading lacks real meaning (see clue 9).

15. Frequency with which she left top off attracts sex tourists

1.	'attracts sex tourists' doesn't quite define a noun
2.	Defition lacks an indefinite article, 'which' otiose in wordplay.

16. Fundamentally licentious establishment that primarily conceals knocking shop ?

1.	Well worked-out clue.

17. Gyrating top-shelf centrefold doing a turn for Dirty Den

1.	I can see what the intention was but would have been better left with a single anagram indicator I think
2.	A nice idea but this really requires some punctuation for the wordplay to work properly and does 'centrefold' = 'centre' ?
3.	The best of the 'top shelf' clues

18. I see this has fetishes and pole dancing

1.	Not an &lit, since the definition is simply "this".
2.	Lovely taut and clever clue – wins for me
3.	A good try at an &lit, though 'I see' is superfluous to the definition (see clue 43).
4.	Excellent comp. anag. & lit. A clear winner for me
5.	I like the pole dancing, would have preferred a different linking word to 'has'

19. I'm coming back, high on cannabis, obtained from house of ill-repute

1.	A flesh pot is not a brothel
2.	Needs to be "I must come back", since "am" is only grammatically correct for the pronoun, not the letter of the alphabet.
3.	Wordplay should be 'for' not 'from' definition (see eg clue 17), 'I'm' isn't really equivalent to 'self'

20. In which goose might be cooked if found here in old Soho?

1.	'if found' seems redundant in either definition or wordplay.

21. Lot's wife punished? ——— unwise, I'd fancy!

1.	Great idea, but the completed surface doesn't read very well
2.	Has a professional touch.
3.	A good try at an &lit, though 'I'd fancy' is superfluous to the definition I fancy.

22. Marmite was once viewed as part of a kind of sumptuous living

1.	The second definition seems a little wordy.

23. Material from top shelf distributed here?

1.	'here' plays no role in the wordplay and relies too heavily on the rest of the clue as a definition (see clues 2, 39 and 43)

24. More tea? Vicar finally flipped, abandoned house

1.	'Vicar finally flipped' doesn't say 'R becomes L' to me
2.	terrific idea but I'm not sure about the definition.
3.	I don;t think 'flipped' is enough to indicate a substitution of L for R. What dictionary did 'abandoned house' come from?
4.	'flipped' to signify R to L is too indirect to be fair to the solver, the definition is a little vague and the surface seems unnatural.

25. Newspaper keeps doubly quiet with nothing on the Parisian den of iniquity (5,3)

1.	"doubly" serves no purpose in the surface reading.
2.	The order of the wordplay suggests LE comes after SHPO and the surface seems a bit awkward

26. Old stew? One returned sauce to counter

1.	Does 'one' = 'self' ?

27. Personality turned up finally in popular strip joint (or "gentlemen's club")

1.	Definition by example is not helped by repetition.
2.	Two equivalent defs seems unnecessary
3.	The two defs feel too close in their surface reading meanings.
4.	Clever wordplay but does the second 'example' enhances the definition ?
5.	Nice clue but for me it would be better ending after 'joint'.

28. Place for erotic massage of beer belly? (5,3)

1.	"of" serves no purpose in the cryptic reading.
2.	'of' isn't a conventional link word

29. Place to find erotic entertainment? Top shelf, potentially

1.	Neatest and best of the numerous (topshelf)* clues

30. Place where sexual activity is on offer is top shelf bizarrely

1.	This anagram is treated better elsewhere, I'm afraid, e.g. 29.
2.	Why bizarrely? I would expect it there!
3.	I don't see how 'bizarrely' fits the surface at all.
4.	A good attempt at a 'semi & lit', though 'bizarrely' seems to contradict the sense required by the definition.

31. Posh felt phoney in spicy girls' club

1.	I don't think "spicy girls' club" is a good definition.

32. Posh felt shapeless in strip club

1.	A flesh pot is not necessarily a strip club.
2.	'shapeless' seems an unusual anagram indicator perhaps ?

34. Regularly feel the lust that put off model in house of ill repute (5, 3)

1.	heroic
2.	'model' = T seems unusual

35. She lifts her top in return of exceedingly pornographic strip club.

1.	'she lifts her' does not work as wordplay. So much better if you had said 'Stripper's top lifted'
2.	Good idea, would have been better without 'exceedingly'
3.	Nice idea. When there is more manipulation than a simple reversal I think it's unfair to clue a word indirectly. The indication to move S is
4.	Well constructed clue. "Exceedingly pornographic" is rather exaggerated, though.
5.	'She lifts her top' doesn't equal 'lift top of she' unfortunately.

36. Site regularly having hot female pole-dancing?

1.	I think this would have been better without the hyphen – being technically correct is more important than a good surface.
2.	The best of the pole dancers – 'with' would be better than 'having' to bring ST into the anagram and the hyphen should be removed.

37. Spooner's high-class residence in Soho?

1.	'Posh flet' and 'flesh pot' can both Spoonerise to 'flosh pet', but not to each other and 'residence' overlaps with wordplay and definition.
2.	Original idea but flet is not the same as flat – you can't change the way it is pronounced!
3.	Tortuous.
4.	My top choice, even though I thought Spoonerisms were supposed to only invovle the first letters. one

38. Strip joint, maybe, to get meat, then hash.

1.	An original misleading def idea

39. Stripper has fabulous tassel tips pole dancing here?

1.	I like it. The clue…I like the clue!
2.	'here' plays no role in the wordplay and relies too heavily on the rest of the clue as a definition (see clues 2, 23, 43 and 55).

40. Stripping club (Hearts) of Scottish Premier League title gutted fans

1.	Well worked surface. Nice!
2.	Clever misleading def. and wordplay. Would have preferred 'SPL' for a more direct anag.
3.	Top marks – very original, misleading and good surface.
4.	Nice surface, but the anagram fodder is rather tortuous and 'fans' doesn't really signify jumbling.
5.	Poor anagrind – fanning is spreading out not mixing up.
6.	I think it's a nice idea (and topical given Hearts current problems) but 'fans' is only there to make the surface work.

41. Tailor left shop near beer bar (5,3)

1.	Can't see this definition in Chambers ?

42. The French, when after a woman, stroke softly inside the pleasure centre.

1.	I don't even want to think about the implied meaning of "inside the pleasure centre".
2.	Doing that while 'after' a woman would constitute assault, even in France
3.	This is a bit explicit! Should say 'female' rather than 'a woman' – bit unfair to expect solvers to make that jump
4.	Definition rather vague, 'when' otiose in wordplay, 'a woman' for 'f' too indirect.
5.	Woman to female to F is one step extra and this is why 'woman' is not used for picking F.

43. The hot female stripper primarily pole dancing here.

1.	The surface reading indicates the stripper rather than the place. "dances" would work better.
2.	The clue works fine as an & lit. Surface a little ungainly
3.	To use 'here' in the wordplay for a true & lit, how about 'Primarily female strippers tease here with pole dancing'(see2,23,39and55)

44. These mostly flop about in topless bar perhaps

1.	Who or what are "these"?
2.	Entertaining without being indecent
3.	A very distracting surface reading – well done !

45. Tissue holder's solitary pleasure

1.	With no wordplay element, this looks impossible to solve – the definitions are too vague.
2.	Funny surface, but second def doesn't really convince
3.	Neither definition is precise enough to be fair to the solver.

46. Top shelf circulation appreciated here?

1.	Sorry but I tend to mark down noun anagram indicators
2.	'circulation' isn't really an anagrind and 'appreciated here' plays no role in WP, which doesn't enhance def. enough (see 2 and 39).

47. Top shelf, possibly?

1.	Dict. def. surely refers to a live venue even if wording ambiguous. C.f. 29 where same ambiguity is fair game because included in clue.
2.	I see how you've justified this but can't really convince myself a top shelf is a flesh pot
3.	Perhaps this is a bit of a stretch, even with 'possibly' ? (see clue 23)

48. Top shelf reserved for vessel in whish meat is cooked.

1.	Ignoring the typo, a good effort, although the definition could be more succinct.
2.	Very nice double use of 'reserved'.
3.	Not a strong surface.

49. Top-shelf action from Amsterdam.

1.	Another clue that needs a question mark, although I don't believe 'Amsterdam' is a sufficient definition even with one.
2.	I'm not convinced by the noun anagram indicator. Amsterdam is an example of a flesh pot, so I'd suggest a 'perhaps' is required.
3.	I don't like'action' as an anagram indicator and I am not keen on the arrangement 'wordplay from definition'.
4.	'for example' is required after 'Amsterdam' and 'action' is not really an anagram indicator.

50. Top-shelf arousal could lead here

1.	The definition is the single word "here" so it's not an &lit.
2.	Another 'semi & lit' in which the independent definition is too vague (see clues 2, 39 and 43); 'arousal' isn't really an anagrind.

51. Top-shelf naughtiness for red-light district

1.	Sorry but I tend to mark down clues with a noun anagram indicator
2.	'naughtiness' is not really an anagram indicator.

52. Train dogs to hunt and trap a covey of game birds

1.	Obscure but fair.
2.	Great clue though "train dogs to hunt" as a synonym for "flesh" ("train to hunt") is perhaps not strictly valid
3.	A bit different from the rest and nicely constructed
4.	A sensibly misleading surface disguising a nicely cryptic definition – well done !
5.	I like this, nice misleading definition. I'd probably have included a question mark

53. Treatment for 'the flops'?

1.	An unappealing euphemism.
2.	'Treatment' is a bit stretched in the def, but still the best anagram idea on offer
3.	'Treatment' isn't really an anagram indicator and the definition is too vague to be fair to the solver.
4.	This amused me and won some points

54. Where one will pay dearly for a fetish with pole dance that's exclusive.

1.	Semi-&lit, since first few words not part of wordplay (c.f. 18 which is a genuine &lit)
2.	All of the clue must contribute to the wordplay to qualify as & lit. That is not the case here
3.	Not &lit – "Where one will pay dearly for a" has no part in the wordplay.
4.	Another 'semi & lit' in which the independent definition is too vague (see also clues 2, 39 and 43); 'a' seems otiose; cf &lit at 18

55. You could get left so excited catching something saucy here

1.	Good & lit. clue
2.	'here' plays no role in the wordplay and relies too heavily on the rest of the clue as a definition (see clues 2, 39 and 43)