CCCWC June competition voters’ comments

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A clue to ORATES (Printer’s Devilry).
97 comments were received for this competition (from 15 competitors, 3 others)
Move your mouse pointer over any bold clue number to see the clue.

Here is the text

Comments on the competition
1.
As is common in PD, the undevilled versions often make some kind of sense, but were they to appear in a 'real' puzzle, would give the solver no indication of the word required. Compare the two statements (in which no attempt has been made at 'devilry'): 'Smoking is bad for your health' and 'Fred bought a new pair of shoes'. One is sensible and recognizable, the other is irrelevant waffle. The PD cluer should aim for a valid statement rather than a collection of words which in themselves have little meaning. Clue3 made more sense than the rest but could have been improved, whereas 5 was a good example of a clue which made perfect sense, but was unverifiable, not necessarily 'true' and therefore 'non-sense'.
2.
There were fewer interesting ways to split up words than might have been expected and so the challenge proved rather tricky, but I was reminded of ORACLE chosen by Ximenes with the winning clue : Children learning the piano soon learn the sign f/f. The temptation to use FT in a similar way was there and I certainly yielded to it.
3.
Rather more than I expected ignored Robert's note about splits at word-breaks. I'm afraid none of the visit/ors etc got points from me.
4.
I didn't feel anything I came up with was fit to enter, so I didn't enter. Sadly, I think some others should have followed the same route. I found many of the clues to make little sense in one form or the other. On the other hand some were really very good. The submitter of clue #13 asks for comment on the use of 'larf' but 140 characters is not enough. My view, FWIW, is that easily understood non-dictionary words (and names and abbreviations) are OK in clues, but not in answers without due comment in preamble, although, in this type of clue, I'm not sure exactly what constitutes the 'answer'. It seems that people are generally happy to use nicknames for sports personalities, for example, or references to various characters in literature
5.
Undevilled versions should not be compromised in any waay to improve the devilled version, eg an initially promising 5, 8, 11, 17, etc.
6.
I presume the writer of 1 is the director in question. (He writes it, so he may as well eat it!) I can't get 32 to work. Am I missing something? 34 would give "executtable" … I think! I can't make sense of 46.

Comments on the clues

1. A direct hit (6)

1.	I don't mind bad language, but this is just ridiculous!
2.	My favourite – gross but the funniest
3.	Frank Coprophile, presumably ? Nul points
4.	Sorry, for all that it's quite clever, I don't consider the language fit for a clue.
5.	Short and, er, sweet!

2. After seeing mariachi, leg-over needed – crumpet!

1.	Interesting manipulation of the passage, but the undevilled version is a little too strange for me.
2.	A rather strange surface, and I don't think a seeded crumpet exists

3. After setting the tent it was clear his pitch was high enough

1.	A decent effort, though rather wordy.
2.	A good double meaning, well constructed
3.	A nice shift of meaning between the versions
4.	Nice double use of 'pitch' and relatively unforced before and after versions

4. Always study FT, paper that’ll improve your chances of success

1.	A good attempt let down by a rather clumsy surface
2.	Best of the FT clues

5. Barbara winds a lad with punch

1.	Nice idea. I might not have minded the use of a proper noun if the break had not occrred at the end of a word.
2.	A sound clue but both devilled and undevilled versions are just too strange

8. Bolognese scandal – pasta usage collapses in Emilia Romagna

1.	I like the use of sausage here! Undevilled version seems a little too zany though.
2.	We laughed at this – a serious statement with a comical extended phrase

10. Condition of old chamberpot revealed

1.	A sound clue, but somehow uninspiring

11. Conservative strumpet: 'as Boris told a lie?

1.	Undevilled version a little too unnatural
2.	or who is told a lie? (are told?)
3.	A nice idea but "or is told a lie" in the undevilled version makes no sense
4.	Would have liked this better if undevilled text had been more grammatical

13. Custard pie victim I larf at – free dessert!

1.	Not enough room to provide opinion re. your question. See general comments.
2.	I wouldn't mind the 'larf' in the devilled passage if the undevilled one was a bit smoother; 'custard pie victor' seems a little force
3.	larf maybe ok if context to support it (eg other local slang, a celebrity known for saying it in that manner [Kenneth Williams?) etc)
4.	It's non-Chambers so editors would refuse it as a solution; you might get away with it in a clue. Sadly it gives away the devilry location.
5.	Sorry but don't like the use of LARF, at least not in inverted commas
6.	The forename Encha isn't in dictionaries either but any Stenders viewer would understand "You're 'avin' a larf, Encha"!
7.	Not keen on larf regardless of whether it's a word or not – its usage just screams that it's part of the devilry.

14. Decide to match top and bottom

1.	Simple and works well
2.	Both phrases have a good surface reading and this is succinct
3.	By far the best, written by someone who fully understands the principles of PD.
4.	Very neat idea, well spotted

16. Drugs? Culture? Shocks? Visit Tate in London!

1.	Nice to see a reasonable undevilled passage, but the break ocurs at the end of a word.
2.	Both phrases have a good surface reading
3.	Plausible undevilled version.

17. Fatten a lad with swedes and meatball afters – how odd!

1.	Nifty shuffling of spacing, but the undevilled version is quite bizarre
2.	Excellent splitting up of words between the devilled and undevilled versions – I'm just not keen on either of the surfaces.

18. For USA State that's most desirable, I would choose Texas definitely best.

1.	Nice ideas and use of humour. Undevilled version reads a bit unnaturally though
2.	Very amusing
3.	Ingenious idea let down by the fact that "sex" could not be described as a "state"

19. Found these natty mangoes wild in Washington

1.	Not sure the undoctored quite makes sense but a nice change in surface for a change
2.	The undevilled version makes no sense with its peculiar mixture of tenses

20. French visit sex party, thrown by distant relations

1.	Nice idea, but I can't forgive the break occurring at the end of a word.

21. FT featuring excess spin, Lords want Ed Balls checked

1.	Best of the FT clues, though an abbreviation like this just screams out to the solver where the break will occur!
2.	Of all the 'for a test' ones, this was, I thought, the best
3.	Very witty, best of the FTs
4.	Nearly very good, but the undevilled version is not fully convincing, when one thinks about it.

23. Glam organ sex (6)

1.	Break occurs at end of a word, and the undevilled passage seems to need something more to make a complete sentence
2.	Admirably concise but meaningless, unfortunately

24. Hardy's whimsy featuring beautiful, but forlorn signs of Italy.

1.	I don't think Tess had any Italian roots, so the solution seems a bit unfair!
2.	The devilled version reads much more convincingly than the undevilled, especially as Tess was hardly "Signora Tess"

25. Headmaster gives finest to wayward boys

1.	'finest' seems to spoil the surface.
2.	The original phrase had a strained wordplay

27. I was worried soft drive wouldn't go on the green.

1.	Rather odd, as no-one drives on the green

28. If eager, FT solvers may find Bradman more challenging than Dante.

1.	Fair (unlike the vast majority), but rather prolix.
2.	Quite neat, but the two versions are too similar to score highly. If only, the author could somehow have converted crosswords into cricket.

30. Is searching F.T. paper allowed before sitting exam?

1.	Another good attempt let down by the extraneous "paper" in the devilled version

31. I've a Lincoln.

1.	Admirably short, but the undevilled passage is a bit bizarre.
2.	I think this would be virtually impossible to solve without a lot of letters appearing in intersecting clues

32. Lupita Lopez hails the unsung prowess of female bullfighters.

1.	Either there was a mistake typing the clue or the entrant didn't quite get the rules here
2.	NOT 1a printers devilry clue – see how others are constructed.
3.	How does "the matadtifies to" translate to "hails"? Is it Basque?
4.	Er, what?
5.	This competitor misunderstood the structure of a Printer's Devilry clue, unfortunately
6.	I'm guessing this was submitted by mistake, as it doesn't follow the rules?

33. Many an investor in the 1990s wrote off FSA

1.	The cleverest of the abbreviation clues
2.	An excellent attempt but the devilled version requires the definite article to clinch it
3.	I tend not to like abbreviations but both these are well known. Nice clue.

34. Negotiating with an executable proposition

1.	Execut(or? A tes)table ??

35. Nothing achieved by quitting

1.	I'm giving it one vote because it is original – I'm tired of reading about the FT.
2.	Neat and succinct, though the devilled version may be more plausible than the undevilled!

36. Paying to get a FT paper – worth it in the long run?(6)

A FT?

37. Preaches regarding starving flock, yet pasture enough.

1.	Both phrases have a good surface reading
2.	I really liked this idea. It's a pity the writer muddled their tenses to work in the definition
3.	Trying a little too hard to include a definition, which is not strictly required. The devilled version doesn't read smoothly

39. Prepare Daggers' FT match report

1.	In my opinion the slang names are a weakness.

40. Remember how, last royal visit, he devoured the cake!

1.	I disapprove of the break occuring at the end of a word.
2.	Hope it was a Duchy original oatcake!

42. Tab left by a scientist

1.	I feel the undevilled version needs something extra to make a complete sentence
2.	Sound and concise but uninspiring

43. The cast even flounders!

1.	I like the smooth undevilled passage, main weakness is the break occurs at the end of a word. Also, beavers are herbivorous!

45. There is no growth here – shave to be minimal

1.	Assuming it is ok for the clue word to end before a space, this is one of the top clues in my opinion
2.	Both phrases have a good surface reading
3.	A neat idea but "shave to be" is an awkward construction

46. They don't mind that sad echo every moment — they accept it.

1.	Not sure what the undevilled passage means. The abbreviation is a weakness here too.
2.	I could not have solved this as the revised phrase is rather incomprehensible to me

47. To me, one is to hold them in esteem.

1.	Nice undevilled passage, pity the devilled one didn't make a little more sense
2.	A classic piece of devilry

48. To perfect, I lead elite section.

1.	clever
2.	Eh?? You've got to give the poor solver a chance!